Liu Zhenyun: Intellectuals who have been to school and those who have not

Latest update time：2021-09-01 20:50

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In fact, the four great classics of China are all extremely treasonous: "Dream of Red Mansions" praises gangsters ; "Water Margin" praises murderers; "Journey to the West" is very powerful. Where did the monsters that Tang Monk and his four companions encountered come from? They were all sent by Tathagata Buddha. I came to you to seek scriptures, and the monsters came from you. Finally, when I arrived at the door of the scripture library, two supreme beings demanded money - this is not a holy place for Buddhism.

That year Liu Zhenyun was 51 years old and I was 34. He published One Sentence is Worth Ten Thousand Sentences that year and I went to interview him.

He sat in front of me, smiling and smoking a light Zhongnanhai brand cigarette.

This man, who has been running long distances every day for 36 years, is thin and frail.

"You look about 40." I didn't mean it as a compliment.

"How can it be that old ? I'm probably only in my twenties or thirties." The first half of Liu Zhenyun's answer seemed joking, but the second half became serious. "This is from the perspective of being studious and enthusiastic. Being young is a particularly important prerequisite for an author to be able to write. You can be very experienced in your knowledge, but you still need to have a basic emotional fullness."

He said that "One Sentence is Worth Ten Thousand Sentences" is a book about "people finding people, words finding words" that reflects the dilemma of human communication. Some critics said that the book is "the Chinese version of "One Hundred Years of Solitude"." He said, "These have little to do with the content of the book. Even if they don't write these words, it's still the book."

Then he told with relish the stories of the minor characters in the book, including the story of "Xi Men Qing" and "Pan Jinlian" - a relationship that he thought was "very worth talking about".

He is a person who is quick to discover and admires folk wisdom. He said that after listening to a relative's speech, "it was better than studying in Beijing for ten years." He never calls himself a "writer", and defines himself as a literary youth and a listener. He does not think that writing novels is anything special, "his ancestor is the storyteller Liu Jingting."

He has a systematic classification of his writings: the "hometown series" includes "Hometown Yellow Flowers", "Hometown Get Along and Spread", "Hometown Noodles and Flowers" ; the new era literature series includes "Official" and "Unit"; the "one-character series" includes "A Lot of Nonsense" and "A Ground of Feathers"; the "my name series" includes "My Name is Liu Yuejin", and the next work is "My Name is XXX". "One Sentence is Worth Ten Thousand Sentences" is a new member of the "one-character series".

He used to work as a reporter at the Farmers' Daily, and is now on unpaid leave as an editorial board member. When asked if he was paid, he said, "I'm a freelance writer, not a professional writer, and I've never taken taxpayers' money."

"Parasitism is not a healthy lifestyle," he said.

The real difficulty between people is "finding something to talk about"

Xiao Sanza: According to you, "One Sentence is Worth Ten Thousand Sentences" is a story about "people looking for people, words looking for words". After reading it, I feel that you seem to want to show that human language is weak, communication between people is very difficult, and true communication may be impossible to achieve. Is this what you mean ?

Liu Zhenyun: "People finding people" is particularly difficult, and "words finding words" is even more difficult than "people finding people".

China is a society of individuals, while the West is a society of gods. In a society of gods, everyone can find a good friend, who is God, and you can talk to God ; but in a society of individuals, if you want to talk to someone, you must find a close friend among people, and the process of finding one is particularly difficult. "It is enough to have one close friend in life", which shows that it is a blessing to find a close friend in your life.

The essential difference between a society of humans and a society of gods is that in a society of gods, God's mouth is strict ; in a society of humans, the mouths of close friends are not strict. A good friend 20 years ago may not be a good friend now. If you change, your friends change, or your life changes, any of these three things will change, and the friends of the past will no longer be friends.

In addition, when you find a close friend, you should tell him some intimate things that are not for socializing, and cannot be told to outsiders. For example, Niu Aiguo in this book went to find a comrade in Pingshan County, Hebei Province, and he discussed with his comrade whether to kill his wife. If the relationship between friends changes, such intimate words will immediately become dangerous words, like a knife stabbing your heart.

Therefore, the real difficulty between people is "finding something to say". In a nutshell: friends mean danger, and intimate words are dangerous.

I think there is a kind of relationship in the world that is very talkative and intimate, that is the relationship between "Xi Men Qing" and "Pan Jin Lian". This book is full of "Xi Men Qing" and "Pan Jin Lian", Yang Baishun encountered it, Niu Aiguo also encountered it, and many others also encountered it.

Yang Baishun (a character in the book) and Niu Aiguo had the same awareness. When he found out that he was cuckolded, he drew his sword and was ready to kill. In fact, it was not easy to find "Ximen Qing" and "Pan Jinlian". If you don't find "Ximen Qing" and "Pan Jinlian", you won't know that our motherland is vast. After really looking for them, he suddenly found that the fault was not with "Ximen Qing" and "Pan Jinlian", but with himself, because he found that "Ximen Qing" and "Pan Jinlian" had something to say, and their conversation was as endless as the river. The direction of their conversation was a direction that Yang Baishun and Niu Aiguo had never been to. They suddenly felt that these two people were heroes, because these two people were talking, and they were like moths to a flame, crossing mountains and rivers to elope.

When I was a child, in my county, because "Xi Men Qing" and "Pan Jin Lian" were in love, the woman's husband was killed. The case was solved 20 years later, and they were both shot. At that time, criminals were paraded through the streets, and they were tied around their necks to prevent them from shouting reactionary slogans. In the middle of winter, the man was seen struggling to say something to the woman. The police saw that he might not shout reactionary slogans, so they let him say one sentence. What he said was: "It's cold, tie your headscarf."

Xiao Sanza: Your novels all focus on communication issues between people. For example, "Cell Phone" talks about the leap in communication technology, which has widened the gap between people ; "My Name is Liu Yuejin" talks about how different social classes have difficulty communicating in different contexts. Is this dilemma the result of social change?

Liu Zhenyun: The language barrier and communication barriers between people have been a problem since ancient times. In Confucius' time, communication was actually quite difficult. Why did he travel around the countries ? It was for communication. He went to Henan and then got stuck in Shangcai, which proved that there were great difficulties in communication and the two sides could not reach an agreement.

However, are the difficulties different in each era ? How come the emergence of cities, modernization, and mobile phones have accelerated the difficulty of communication between people? When the carrier of language and the bridge that connects people change, the relationship between people will also be deformed and misplaced. We always think that shortening the distance will bring people closer together, but this is not the case.

In urban life, many people live in the same building, and they always feel that if they live together, they will be closer. In fact, if you live in a village, everyone knows everyone, but in a city, you don’t even know the people next door. This change was not expected when the city was designed.

Xiao Sanza: It seems that there is no way to solve this phenomenon.

Liu Zhenyun: I think it is a type of relationship between people that will inevitably appear when society develops to a certain stage. I think the relationship between distance, time, people, speech, and the heart is particularly interesting. There are four kinds of words that are powerful: one is simple words ; one is true words; one is intimate words; and the other is different words. Different words are actually the most powerful. So if you want to write a book, you must have different words to say, not the same words. The same words really become nonsense.

Many critics say that "A Pile of Feathers" is a chronicle of the daily life of the Xiaolin family. In fact, I think it is not a chronicle. What Xiaolin says is very different from ordinary people. The most different thing Xiaolin said in the book is that a piece of tofu in his family has gone bad, "which is more important than the G8 summit." I think this view is unique.

Who becomes the president of the United States has little to do with their family, but if something goes wrong in the family, a (family) war will break out, and this war is sometimes more immediate than the Iraq War.

I am happy when I do what I want.

Xiao Sanza: From "A Pile of Feathers" to "One Sentence is Worth Ten Thousand Sentences", there are some changes in your writing techniques and the objects of your attention, for example, from concrete to relatively abstract, to telling some truths.

Liu Zhenyun: When I first started writing, I might focus on things and people, and I might pay less attention to the things behind things. But in the end, I found that people and things are not the fundamental things, but the principles behind people and things.

This is not only reflected in writing. For example, humor has several levels: one level is the humor of words, this person's words are particularly funny ; another level is that the thing itself is funny, such as "learning". Chinese people love to sit together to "learn". No matter what they learn, this becomes a form. Who is this form deceiving? In addition to deceiving others, everyone is acting. This thing itself is humorous and funny because it is a performance art.

I think what is more ridiculous and humorous than this is that everyone knows that this is ridiculous, but everyone has to act according to this absurdity ! In the process of creation, I will constantly sublimate the truth behind the matter. For a novel, it is not only to explain something, but the key is to tell the truth behind the matter.

Xiao Sanza: You have never called yourself a writer, but always called yourself an author. Why ?

Liu Zhenyun: I define myself in two ways: First, I should be a young literary person, and I can learn a lot through writing. "Young literary people" are not defined by age, but by mentality. Second, a truly good writer is a listener, not someone who invents and publishes a lot of self-righteous things. I think with such emotions and mentality, I will be more relaxed when doing things, which is at least good for my physical and mental health.

During a dinner, many friends said that Liu Zhenyun still has one advantage, that he is relatively calm and peaceful in doing things. I said, what can be done without calmness and peace ?

Xiao Sanza: Some writers write for the Nobel Prize in Literature, and some hope that their works will be remembered forever. What is the fundamental purpose of your writing ?

Liu Zhenyun: My only purpose in writing is to meet many close friends, which is the greatest pleasure of being an author. It may be difficult to find close friends in real life, but in the book, people like Lao Yang, Niu Aiguo, Lao Wang (characters in "One Sentence is Worth Ten Thousand Sentences"), etc., will tell you a lot of close words, and they will talk about different understandings of life, which I like. That's why I wrote this book, which is enough for me.

If you want to talk about winning awards, I have won them since I was a child, when I was in primary school. Now you think about winning a little red flower, so what ? Besides, this is not something I can decide, it is you who are judging, whether you judge me or not is another matter. So it is better to do what you can do, do what you have the final say, and this person will be very happy.

Humor is an attitude towards life

Xiao Sanza: In your novels, you basically have an affirmative or sympathetic attitude towards ordinary people, while some writers have a critical attitude. Why ?

Liu Zhenyun: First, I think people have similar intelligence and abilities. You may not be much smarter than the people on the street, including the characters in the book. If you don't realize this, it proves that your level of understanding is still very low. Sometimes we suddenly find that someone in the village said something that shocked you. There is a saying that "wisdom lies among the people", which is not without reason.

Second, the characters in my works seem to be ordinary people, but in fact they are very different. They express different insights, and I accept these different insights and think they are brilliant. There are several attitudes in writing. One is to look at all beings at eye level, and the other is to look down on all beings - why do some people look down on all beings ?

I went back to Henan a while ago. My uncle was selling radishes and noodles at the market. He told me that what I did was not as important as what I did. I asked him to give me a reason.

He said, "I can cook vegetables with my radish and steam buns with my noodles. If a person does not eat for three days, he will die. Can I die if I do not read your book for three days?" I said, "No." You must compare who is greater, a writer or a radish or noodle seller? In a sense, the latter is also great. I have never thought that being a writer is such a great thing.

Xiao Sanza: It’s just a skill.

Liu Zhenyun: In the past, it was a craft to make a living. Our ancestor was Liu Jingting. Liu Jingting was a storyteller, and he always told stories at the market. This is our ancestor, and this point must be made very clear.

Xiao Sanza: You once said that listening to your uncle and cousin is better than studying in Beijing for ten years. Is that a bit exaggerated ? What kind of influence do your hometown and fellow villagers have on your creation?

Liu Zhenyun: It’s not an exaggeration at all. I think the words my uncle said above are not only very important, but also made me adjust my relationship with literature and the relationship between literature and life. Literature is useless on a certain level, but it is also very useful in a certain sense.

The influence of my hometown and fellow villagers on my creation is first of all a concept, such as the basic concepts of size, quantity, east, west, south, north, good and evil, love and hate. Where you grew up, that place taught you these concepts. Mutton in Henan is made into mutton stewed noodles, and in Shaanxi it is made into mutton soup steamed buns.

The more important influence of my hometown on me is an attitude towards life: humor. Humor is a softening attitude. Henan people are really humorous when they talk. Basically, two people are joking, and they use an informal way of speaking to talk about serious things.

Our nation has suffered a lot. You cannot resolve the suffering by using suffering to resolve it. The suffering will turn into a piece of iron. But if you change your attitude to a humorous one, the suffering may turn into a piece of ice. The ice will fall into the water of humor and melt quickly.

I wrote a novel called "Revisiting 1942". Everyone thinks that people are very sad when they are dying, but in "Revisiting 1942", Henan people leave the world with their last humorous words when they are dying: when they are about to die, the first thing they think of is a good friend, Lao Zhang, who died three days ago. "Hey, I lived three days longer than him, it's worth it." This is also an attitude towards life, which is particularly humorous.

Intellectuals are divided into two types: those who have received education and those who have not.

Xiao Sanza: When writers reach a certain point, will there be fewer and fewer people with whom they can communicate ? Of course, you just answered part of the question: you need to communicate with ordinary people, but do you also communicate with other people?

Liu Zhenyun: Yes. Intellectuals can be divided into two types: those who have been to school and those who have not. Those who have not been to school may be intellectuals in real life.

Once I went to Wuhan, a real estate agent got drunk and pulled me aside to teach me a principle of life: Never speak ill of others behind their backs, because if you speak ill of others behind their backs, they will know about it one day. In addition, if you speak ill of someone behind his back and he is not present, but you tell it to another person, the other person will think that if you can speak ill of him behind his back, you can also speak ill of me behind my back. So how do you speak ill of others ? You should speak ill of them to their faces, and you should also say good things about them behind their backs. Do you think this is what I gained from my trip to Wuhan?

Xiao Sanza: You seemed to have said that your grandmother had the greatest influence on you ?

Liu Zhenyun: The person you grew up with will definitely have the greatest influence on you. I was fortunate to grow up with my grandmother. She was illiterate, but being illiterate does not necessarily mean being ignorant. She did see things more thoroughly than many educated people. She always said that when two people work together, there is always an advantage, and she said that this advantage should be taken by others. I think this sentence is very philosophical now. I still remember my grandmother's words when I grow up, and it has become a conscious action. I have never taken advantage of my friends.

Xiao Sanza: You have always advocated rural wisdom, but the current Chinese countryside is indeed very different from the countryside many years ago. For example, what impact do the current migrant workers, urbanization, and globalization have on China, which is based on rural wisdom ?

Liu Zhenyun: I don't particularly agree with the term "local wisdom". Does that mean that cities have no wisdom ? It would be more accurate to say that folk wisdom exists in both cities and villages, in both Hebei and Henan, in both China and the United States. I think folk wisdom and folk power are enormous.

Some people use themes to classify novels. But a truly good novel should transcend themes. Is it true that Lao Ma is a cart driver and Lao Yang is a tofu maker, and their discussion of friends is only suitable for cart drivers and tofu sellers? I think it is also suitable for officialdom and companies. It doesn't matter what they do. The key is to discover the truth between people and the whole life from the behavior of these two people.

Parasitism is not a healthy lifestyle

Xiao Sanza: How a writer survives in reality is of great concern to everyone. Ah Cheng once cried poor when he was interviewed by our magazine, and he even publicly begged during the peak season. How is your source of income and living conditions in real life ?

Liu Zhenyun: What is poverty ? What is wealth? Some people feel rich only when they have hundreds of billions of assets, but some people can live well even if they sell carrots. The concept of rich and poor varies from person to person. Rich and poor are not a coordinate that can measure everyone. I think "comfort" is a better concept?

I am now living by writing, but I feel that I live a very comfortable life. If you say that I am rich, I am definitely not as rich as the rich. It is impossible for a writer to become rich, because you are also a manual laborer. Anyone who makes money by craftsmanship cannot be rich. Who are the real rich people ? People who make money by money can become rich, and people who make money by other people's money can definitely become rich. I think this is a basic rule.

Xiao Sanza: The Writers Association has been controversial in recent years. Some people criticize the Writers Association for keeping a large number of writers in captivity, and writers who are paid gradually lose their independence and creativity. But some writers also believe that it is understandable for the state to provide financial support to relatively disadvantaged cultural groups. What do you think about this issue ?

Liu Zhenyun: I am a freelance writer, not a professional writer. I have never taken taxpayers’ money. For a profession to take taxpayers’ money, at least I cannot say it is the right thing to do. There is a man nailing shoes at the entrance of our vegetable market. Does anyone pay him a salary every month for nailing shoes ? He gets paid for each pair of shoes he nails. It is the same with selling watermelons. He is not paid every month for selling watermelons, but gets paid for each watermelon he sells.

Another point is that the people who take the money must know that it is dishonorable to take it this way, but they are justified. They have already gained something without working, but they still want to be the spokesperson for the working people. I think this is ridiculous. If you feel that you can't support yourself by doing this, you can do something else. After all, being a writer is not a profession that makes money. Parasitism is not a healthy lifestyle.

Xiao Sanza: Some people say that writers have two enemies: the system and the market. What do you think ?

Liu Zhenyun: If a person cannot write good works, he should not blame the times, society, or life. I think a truly good author should write good works in the era in which he is born.

If you want to talk about treason, then the four great Chinese classics are all treasonous: Dream of the Red Chamber praises gangsters ; Water Margin praises murderers; Journey to the West is very powerful. Where did the monsters that Tang Monk and his three companions encountered come from? They were all sent by Tathagata Buddha. I came to you to obtain the scriptures, and the monsters came from you. Finally, when I arrived at the door of the scripture library, the two supreme beings demanded money - isn't this a holy place for Buddhism? Didn't they also write very good works?

The Stalin era was very authoritarian, but people still wrote things like "Quiet Flows the Don", "The Prague Islands" and "Doctor Zhivago", didn't they ? I think it's your business first, and then you bring up others'. Don't say that I didn't accomplish this because of you. I think that's putting the cart before the horse.

Let's talk about the market. If there is a market, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing, but good things definitely have a market. Is "The Analects" a good thing ? It's a bestseller, right? "Records of the Grand Historian" is a bestseller, right? The Four Great Classics are bestsellers, right? The poems of Li Bai, Du Fu, and Bai Juyi are bestsellers, right? Li Qingzhao, Su Shi, and Liu Yong are bestsellers, right? Tolstoy, Sholokhov, Hemingway, Camus, Hugo, Shakespeare, and Marquez are all bestsellers, and they are bestsellers from South America, Europe, and North America to China. If you are a recognized good writer, how can you not have a market?

Short-sightedness is a huge problem for this nation.

Xiao Sanza: You said that you were troubled by the repetitive cycle of fate of an individual, a family, and a nation. Do you think it is possible to break this repetitive cycle ?

Liu Zhenyun: It is impossible to completely break it. I think a person, a nation, and a society all have their own destiny. Many things seem to be happening now, but in fact they existed many years ago. I also find that human wisdom has not changed much. For example, Confucius's thoughts are no worse than those of today's thinkers ; Sima Qian's articles are no worse than those of today's authors. The problems that emerged during the Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period still exist today.

Let's talk about corruption. The root of corruption is not in the present. It existed in the Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period, the Qin Dynasty, the Tang Dynasty, and the Song Dynasty. So in dramas, you will find that when a county magistrate appears, his nose is definitely white. The rules cannot be escaped, but is there a better way to solve these problems? There should be a way. The system will not completely solve the fundamental problems, but it can still solve some problems.

Personally speaking, life is just a cycle. What are people running for ? What are they looking for? In fact, in the ultimate sense, they are all looking for death. This is a pessimistic statement, but also a positive one. Because people originally do not exist, you are still looking for the original things. In Buddhism, color is emptiness, and emptiness is color. It means that the universe originally does not exist.

However, the Chinese believe in the present, which is very troublesome. So they sometimes look at things in the short term. For example, in some countries, especially developed countries, highways are built for decades without moving, while our highways are built this year and have to be repaired next year. Paris, France, is still using the sewers from the French Revolution, while our sewers are like zippers, which can be opened from time to time. Now some counties and cities have enclosed many science and technology parks and development zones, and the land is just lying there. A mayor comes to power, and his term of office is only a few years, so his vision will not exceed his term of office. If a person's vision cannot exceed his term of office, how can he be a mayor ?

Lu Xun once said that the biggest problem of the Chinese is that they remember to eat but not to be beaten, and they think they have gained an advantage even when they suffer a loss. This is one aspect. I think what is more important is the problem of the nation's perspective. Short-sightedness is a very big problem of this nation.