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What will happen if you connect the input and output of the power bank? [Copy link]

 

RTRT

I'm wondering if any of you have done something like this?

What will be the consequences?

How to avoid this consequence?

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Lonely lonely   Details Published on 2021-6-1 22:51
 
 

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Repost an answer from Zhihu

This problem is not as simple as many people think. There is a buck-boost circuit inside the power bank, so the entire power bank is not a linear circuit at all. The circuit knowledge of high school and junior high school physics cannot solve this problem!

  Before answering, I took a quick look at other people's answers and found the following main problems:

  (1) Is short-circuiting the input and output terminals of a power bank equivalent to connecting the positive and negative terminals of a lithium battery?

  A: No, there will be no short circuit. The output and input of the power bank are not equal to the positive and negative poles of the lithium battery. There are various buck-boost circuits and protection circuits inside the power bank. The input and output ports are only connected to these circuits instead of directly connecting to the lithium battery.

  Next, let's analyze this problem theoretically. Suppose I have a 3.7v lithium battery (considered as a constant voltage source, of course, this is not the way to think about it in practice, because the variable voltage phenomenon is ignored):

  

The 5V boost circuit inside the power bank looks like this (a diode is missing between LC, thanks for the correction)

  

  The circuit for charging the battery cell is roughly like this (only considering the constant voltage process, corresponding to the state when the battery cell is at high power)

  

  If the output and input terminals are short-circuited, the entire circuit looks like this:

  

  The battery in this circuit topology is obviously not short-circuited.

  Assuming that the circuit will continue to work once connected (excluding some products that can automatically identify such misoperation and cut off the power), the law of conservation of energy tells us that the entire system will continue to consume power. So where does the power go? Is it dangerous to do this in extreme cases? When the power bank is working normally, the two MOS tubes will continuously switch between on and off, roughly like this:

  (Simultaneous) conduction:

  

(simultaneous) deadline:

  

  Some people may have noticed that when the MOS tube in the boost circuit is turned on, the positive and negative electrodes of the battery cell will be short-circuited through an inductor. According to the reactance properties of the inductor, the circuit is in a state similar to "open circuit" at the beginning. When the maintenance time tends to positive infinity, the battery cell is equivalent to being directly short-circuited. However, during the normal operation of the MOS tube inside the power bank, the switching frequency is generally greater than 100kHz, and many products have reached the MHz level. Each cycle lasts for a very short time, which seems to be relatively safe. However, it cannot be ignored that most of the control ICs used in the power bank currently use PWM modulation for voltage regulation. Therefore, under normal circumstances, the lithium battery cell will not be directly short-circuited, but there is a risk of instantaneous large current discharge.

  (2) Since the theoretical circuit will not pose a serious risk, will there be any difference in the actual product?

  Below is the application schematic and block diagram of TI's BQ24195 control IC:

  

The block diagram of BQ24195:

  

  (Source: BQ24195 datasheet, TI reserves copyright)

  The circuit configuration above is a bit complicated, and because the MOS is integrated into the control IC, it looks a bit confusing. However, it is not difficult to see that the actual circuit configuration is basically the same as the circuit schematic I drew in the sketch, so the analysis in question (1) is also applicable here.

  (3) Why does my power bank display as charging after I connect it to its input and output ports with a USB cable, but the power level is decreasing, and some devices even become very hot?

  In general, if the input port and the output port are connected with a USB cable, the control IC will drive the MOS tube to work all the time in order to maintain the 5v output port and the 4.2v battery port charging voltage. The ripple generated during the operation will return to the power ground through the capacitor and eventually return to the negative electrode of the battery. In other words, under ideal conditions, the power bank will enter a state of slow discharge (ripple can be understood as a small voltage fluctuation, which is only a very small part of the output voltage). The status light shows that it is in charging state because there is voltage input at the input end, but in fact the power of the power bank will not increase.

  The above analysis is ideal. The actual circuit is not configured like the BQ24195 DEMO. The quality of the components used may not be the same. Therefore, the discharge speed of the battery may be much faster than the ideal situation, resulting in heating. However, a normal power bank will have certain current limiting measures on the output circuit, and the lithium battery will also have an independent protection circuit, so the lithium battery will not explode.

  If we discuss this issue in depth at the technical level, current power banks generally use synchronous buck (asynchronous in the schematic diagram) to improve efficiency. If the duty cycle modification of the switch tube is simply inverted without considering this prank, the buck will enter DCM from CCM when the duty cycle of the upper tube is very small. In addition, the lithium battery cell is equivalent to a boost topology. At this time, the whole circuit will oscillate, and the inductive components will discharge. The capacitor in the buck is very easy to be broken down. If the power bank uses electrolytic capacitors, they may explode, and then it will be a joke.

  To sum up, the problem of connecting the input and output ports of a power bank with a wire is not a "short circuit", but if the power bank cannot automatically identify and automatically disconnect the output, or even gets seriously hot, please disconnect it immediately.

  (PS: Before answering, I have conducted experiments on many different models of power banks from different manufacturers, and all of them worked fine)

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Perfect answer, clear and concise, reading it is like a spring breeze  Details Published on 2021-5-28 09:23
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I have tried it before, and the power bank will show that it is charging, but I can’t analyze the specific principle. I look forward to the analysis of the experts!

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Does it charge itself? Hahaha, I seem to have heard that it would not work, and the power bank can't charge itself and the device at the same time. A friend tried charging the power bank while the power bank was charging the phone, and they couldn't charge at the same time. This short circuit should be the same, right?   Details Published on 2021-5-27 10:39
 
 
 

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w494143467 Published on 2021-5-27 10:13 I have tried it before, the power bank will show that it is charging, but I can't analyze the specific principle. I look forward to the analysis of the big guys!

Do you charge yourself? Hahaha,

I seem to have heard before that it would not respond, and the power bank seemed to be unable to charge itself and the device at the same time.

A friend tried charging a mobile phone while the power bank was charging, but they couldn't charge at the same time.

This short circuit should be the same.

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You can try it, what game is your avatar in?  Details Published on 2021-5-27 10:47
 
 
 

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1nnocent posted on 2021-5-27 10:39 Do you charge yourself? Hahaha, I seem to have heard that it will not work. It seems that the power bank cannot charge itself and charge the device at the same time...

You can try it, what game is your avatar in?

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I don't know. It's a world map. You said it like it's a game.  Details Published on 2021-5-27 10:49
 
 
 

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w494143467 posted on 2021-5-27 10:47 You can try it. What game is your avatar from?

I don't know. It's a world map. You said it like it's a game.

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It feels like a game from Subor or Nintendo.  Details Published on 2021-5-27 10:52
 
 
 

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1nnocent posted on 2021-5-27 10:49 I don't know either. It's a world map. When you say that, it seems a bit like a game

It feels like a game from Subor or Nintendo.

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Hahaha, I have done this before, and the power bank was fine, it didn't explode, but don't try this kind of thing
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The battery protection circuit is tightly connected to the lithium battery of the power bank

The protection circuits include overcharge, over discharge, short circuit protection, over current, and some also have temperature protection.

The design of power bank usually separates the charging path and the output path. Looking at the protection circuit, we can see that there are two MOS tubes, one charging MOS switch and one discharging MOS switch.

If there is no protection circuit, imagine that it is just a bare battery, the input and output connections...

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Some power banks support charging and discharging at the same time. At this time, it should show charging, and the power will decrease as it charges.

Some do not support charging and discharging at the same time, and the output will stop when charging.

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Most of the current power banks should support charging and discharging at the same time. Power banks with reasonable circuit design can short-circuit the output and input. The result is that it is safe after analyzing the circuit. The power bank will enter the state of charging and discharging at the same time, but the battery will not be charged but will be discharged all the time (actually it is a coordinated discharge mode). This is determined by the energy conversion rate. The lower the conversion rate, the faster the battery discharges. If the conversion efficiency is high and the load monitoring threshold is also high, this type of power bank will stop working after a period of time after short-circuiting the output and input because the current output is lower than the threshold.

For a few power banks that do not support charging and discharging at the same time, the input and output can be short-circuited if the circuit design is reasonable. There are two states after short-circuiting. One is that the input filter capacitor capacity is too small and it simply does not work. The other is that it switches back and forth between the short discharge state and the short charge state, which is equivalent to a light load output.

An AC input power bank will not work after short-circuiting the input and output because the AC input voltage is too low, resulting in no discharge or stopping output after a short period of work. The specific capacity is determined by the capacity of the filter capacitor.

For a well-designed power bank, there should generally be these three situations.

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I feel that those mobile phones that cannot replace the battery after charging are not reliable.  Details Published on 2021-5-27 21:54
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Will it explode?

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No, the conclusion must be based on evidence. What is the reason for the explosion? Even if the circuit design is improper, or even if the battery output is short-circuited, it will not explode. The explosion of batteries or other components requires sufficient energy input. Without external energy input, relying on the power bank itself is far from enough.  Details Published on 2021-5-27 23:55
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没有什么不可以,我就是我,不一样的烟火! 

 
 
 

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Alas, there will always be those brainless people. For example, the charging port of the mobile phone has become a universal type.

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chunyang posted on 2021-5-27 14:41 Nowadays, most power banks should support charging and discharging at the same time. Power banks with reasonable circuit design can short-circuit the output and input. The result can be known by analyzing the circuit...

I feel that those mobile phones that cannot replace the battery after charging are not reliable.

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You got it wrong. In terms of system reliability, non-replaceable batteries are more likely to perform better.  Details Published on 2021-5-27 23:52
 
 
 

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led2015 posted on 2021-5-27 21:54 I feel that those mobile phones that cannot replace the battery after charging are not reliable

You got it wrong. In terms of system reliability, non-replaceable batteries are more likely to perform better.

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I consider it from the perspective of the number of times it is charged, but it may be better if it is not replaceable within a certain period of time.  Details Published on 2021-5-28 23:31
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No, the conclusion must be based on evidence. What is the reason for the explosion? Even if the circuit design is improper, or even if the battery output is short-circuited, it will not explode. The explosion of batteries or other components requires sufficient energy input. Without external energy input, relying on the power bank itself is far from enough.

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There are some fake chargers that can be used for a short time now. What exactly is damaged in the feasibility of this use?  Details Published on 2021-5-28 23:32
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okhxyyo posted on 2021-5-27 09:57 Repost an answer from Zhihu This question is not as simple as many people think. There is a buck-boost circuit inside the power bank, so the entire power bank is basically...

Perfect answer, clear and concise, reading it is like a spring breeze

This post is from Talking
 
 
 

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Why do you want to pierce yourself? Are you so lonely?

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Does self-fertilization mean loneliness? Rice is also self-fertilization, which means self-fertilization. However, it can also bear fruit. Its fruit is called rice. After shelling and processing, it becomes rice. And you also eat such fruit, maybe with three meals a day. It has been like this for thousands of years. What's the problem?   Details Published on 2021-5-31 16:43
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chunyang posted on 2021-5-27 23:52 You got it wrong. In terms of system reliability, non-replaceable batteries are more likely to do better.

I consider it from the perspective of the number of times it is charged, but it may be better if it is not replaceable within a certain period of time.

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The number of charge times has nothing to do with whether the battery is replaceable. The design of non-replaceable batteries can be better in terms of reliability. This is not "maybe" but inevitable. However, even if the battery is not replaceable, the battery can still be replaced. It's just a little more troublesome, but the benefits far outweigh this trouble.  Details Published on 2021-5-29 16:24
 
 
 

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chunyang posted on 2021-5-27 23:55 No, the conclusion must be based on facts. What is the reason for the explosion? Even if the circuit design is improper, even if the battery output is short-circuited, it will not explode. Batteries or other...

There are some fake chargers that can be used for a short time now. What exactly is damaged in the feasibility of this use?

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I don’t know what you want to express?  Details Published on 2021-5-29 16:24
 
 
 

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