4226 views|22 replies

9157

Posts

6

Resources
The OP
 

Why do American programmers have an easier job and work less overtime than Chinese programmers? [Copy link]

 
I recently saw an article. I don't know if it's true or not. I'm sharing it with you. Please judge for yourself. Do you think it's true?
Don't American programmers work overtime? They only work eight hours a day and can come and go as they please? You can't find them during non-working hours? And what about food and drinks?
Let me tell you the real situation. It's...
It is true.
The overtime culture should be the most obvious difference between China and the United States. The reasons for this difference cannot be explained in just one or two sentences. I have worked in both countries and in different positions, so I will try to briefly talk about it from different angles.
Programmers in China work overtime seriously, and the problem is not primarily with programmers as a group.
There are many decisions made on the product level based on a snap of the fingers
At the product level, there are many decisions made on the spot, which are euphemistically called "Internet thinking", "small steps and fast progress", and "trial and error thinking". In fact, they have not thought it through clearly. Anyway, I just mention a demand and the technical team will do it. If it succeeds after the launch, I am a product genius. If it fails, there is no harm. I can find an excuse saying "the Internet market changes too fast" to get away with it, or find a new project and continue to paint a rosy picture.
There are too many product managers in China, many of whom are fresh graduates with no experience. They can only rely on their wild imagination to propose a requirement, which can make a group of technical experts work hard for several months to realize it. This is simply incredible. Even if the product manager is very good, when there are too many people, everyone wants to achieve results, and they all work hard to come up with ideas and propose requirements. How can the technical team cope with so many requirements? So there will be these phenomena:
Holidays are coming, we launch an activity, or a holiday easter egg function.
Competitors have launched a xx function, which looks good, so we rush to launch one too.
10 product managers tell you at the same time: I have checked this requirement with the boss, and it must be launched before xx.
The product manager has not thought clearly about the value of a certain function, or the benefits it brings are not significant, and the technical team needs to pay a lot of effort for it, that is, work overtime. Of course, this is not necessarily the fault of the product manager. In domestic companies, the bosses give too many instructions. I won't say more. You know.
In the United States, most product managers are people with very rich industry experience. They are either transferred from engineers or from many years of business experience and then studied MBA. It often takes half a year or a year to launch a function, from proposing an idea to seeing the update by the end user after rigorous theoretical deduction, multiple rounds of preliminary research, and scientific AB testing. Many unsuccessful ideas are "stillborn" before they are launched because of poor data. This not only improves the quality of product requirements, but also gives the technical team enough time to design and implement a sustainable development architecture.
The technical team has low voice
When making decisions, the management often pays more attention to product updates and iterations, while neglecting the construction of technology.
For example, if the technical team has 100 hours, the boss may invest 90 hours in realizing product features, optimizing technology, and repairing technical debt. As a result, the technical implementation will be very rough. For example, if you are given a week to implement an IM function, will you consider modularization, maintainability, performance optimization, etc.? Of course, do it as fast as possible. Baidu has implemented the code of others, ctrl+v /ctrl+c, click to run, hey, it runs through, online.
So many programmers in China look at other people's code and feel that it is a bunch of shit and completely unmaintainable, so they simply rewrite it themselves.
Can the technical boss run to the boss and say, "Let's stop the product demand for a while and let our technical team optimize the infrastructure."? As long as he is not a fool, he will not say so.
The low voice power is also reflected in the fact that there is almost no decision-making power over the product, and even cannot question the product decision. If you raise objections, you will always be blocked by the product manager for various reasons. The product manager has a sentence to end the debate: This is what the boss should do.
Over time, technical debt piles up higher and higher, and there are more and more bugs. If programmers don’t work overtime, who will?
The phenomenon in American companies is that technology has a very high voice, and a product demand that is not clearly thought out can be directly rejected by the technical team. At the same time, the technical team can independently spend a lot of time on technical optimization. The product can't be launched on time? The manager said: It doesn't matter, postpone it, and advance it according to the best technical solution. Sometimes you want to go online quickly, and submit a piece of shoddy code, which will be despised by your colleagues and scolded by your boss.
In the last month of each quarter, we will devote our energy to make up for technical debt and put product needs aside.
In such an environment, it may seem inefficient in the short term, but it is the most efficient in the long term. In China, the saying goes "haste makes waste", while in the United States, the saying goes "slow work makes fine work".
Poor technical infrastructure
In fact, the technical infrastructure of most companies is very poor.
How many companies can afford a dedicated Infra team? How many technical teams can set up a small team specifically for Infra optimization? Even if there are, how many companies can guarantee that the results of the Infra team can be implemented throughout the company?
I believe that companies that can do this are rare.
Needless to say, small and medium-sized companies, in such a highly competitive environment, how can they afford to support a team that cannot directly bring about KPI improvement? Even if they have money, they don’t have time to optimize.
But the reality is that there are still no internal tools that are common to the entire company, and each team is still reinventing the wheel. Alibaba has done a very good job. The big and medium-sized platform strategy that it started to implement in the past few years has achieved remarkable results and liberated the productivity of various product departments.
Computer programs are completely different concepts when written by one person or a group of people, and when used by thousands of users or tens of millions of users. Without strong infrastructure construction, the larger the technical team, the lower the efficiency, the more users there are, and the more bugs there are.The more. You have to pay for what you have done. If no one pays attention to infrastructure today, countless programmers will work overtime for it in the future.
Back in the United States, a dedicated Infra team is almost standard for every company. This is also the result of the engineering culture. The founders and executive teams must have a strong technical background and have gone through many detours, so they attach great importance to infrastructure construction, which is "important but not urgent".
Abnormal workplace culture
Finally, let’s talk about cultural differences.
Americans pay great attention to individuals and families, and it is impossible for them to sacrifice their own time to work overtime for the company. They leave on time when it’s time to get off work, and never check emails outside of work hours. Many companies’ onboarding training specifically emphasizes how to balance work and life, which actually means: after-get off work time is your time, and you have the right not to deal with company affairs.
On the other hand, in China, I don’t know when overtime has become a convention. There are also seemingly reasonable life experiences, such as “young people should work harder” and “working overtime can learn more and is good for the future.”
Working overtime has become something that is honorable and can be used to compare with others. For example, if you work overtime until one or two in the morning, take a photo, post it on WeChat Moments, and are very happy to receive a thumbs-up from your boss. Managers also buy into this. Those who work more overtime and are good at handling things will have more advantages during the assessment.
In this atmosphere of overtime, even "pseudo overtime" has appeared. I arrive at the company at 10 in the morning, go to the toilet, read the news, and browse my Moments. It's already 11:30, and I haven't done any work. Then I prepare to have lunch. After lunch, I go for a walk and take a nap. It's 2 o'clock again. I write some code and browse Zhihu. Another afternoon has passed. Many companies have free dinners. After lunch, I come back around 7 o'clock, write some code, and grind until 10 o'clock. Oh yeah, it's another fulfilling day. I'll post a Moments to let my boss know.
In fact, the effective working time in a day is less than 8 hours, but it is "overtime".
To sum up, this is probably the reason why overtime is so serious in China.
Teams are almost standard for every company. This is also the result of engineering culture. The founders and senior management team must have a strong technical background and have gone through many detours, so they attach great importance to infrastructure construction, which is "important but not urgent".
Abnormal workplace culture
Finally, let's talk about cultural differences.
Americans pay much attention to individuals and families, and it is impossible for them to sacrifice their own time to work overtime for the company. They leave on time when it is time to get off work, and never check emails during non-working hours. Many companies’ on-the-job training specifically emphasizes how to balance work and life, which actually means: after-get off work time is your time, and you have the right not to deal with company affairs.
On the other hand, in China, I don’t know when overtime has become a convention. There are also seemingly reasonable life experiences, such as "young people should work harder" and "working overtime can help you learn more and is good for your future".
Overtime has become a glorious phenomenon that can be used for comparison. For example, if you work overtime until one or two in the morning, take a photo, post it on WeChat Moments, and receive a thumbs-up from your boss, you will be very happy. Managers also buy into this. Those who work more overtime and are good at handling things will have more advantages during the assessment.
In this atmosphere of overtime, even "pseudo overtime" has appeared. I arrive at the company at 10 in the morning, go to the toilet, read the news, and browse my Moments. It's already 11:30, and I haven't done any work. Then I prepare to have lunch. After lunch, I go for a walk and take a nap. It's 2 o'clock again. I write some code and browse Zhihu. Another afternoon has passed. Many companies have free dinners. After lunch, I come back around 7 o'clock, write some code, and grind until 10 o'clock. Oh yeah, it's another fulfilling day. I'll post a Moments to let my boss know.
In fact, the effective working time in a day is less than 8 hours, but it is "overtime".
To sum up, this is probably the reason why overtime is so serious in China.
Teams are almost standard for every company. This is also the result of engineering culture. The founders and senior management team must have a strong technical background and have gone through many detours, so they attach great importance to infrastructure construction, which is "important but not urgent".
Abnormal workplace culture
Finally, let's talk about cultural differences.
Americans pay much attention to individuals and families, and it is impossible for them to sacrifice their own time to work overtime for the company. They leave on time when it is time to get off work, and never check emails during non-working hours. Many companies’ on-the-job training specifically emphasizes how to balance work and life, which actually means: after-get off work time is your time, and you have the right not to deal with company affairs.
On the other hand, in China, I don’t know when overtime has become a convention. There are also seemingly reasonable life experiences, such as "young people should work harder" and "working overtime can help you learn more and is good for your future".
Overtime has become a glorious phenomenon that can be used for comparison. For example, if you work overtime until one or two in the morning, take a photo, post it on WeChat Moments, and receive a thumbs-up from your boss, you will be very happy. Managers also buy into this. Those who work more overtime and are good at handling things will have more advantages during the assessment.
In this atmosphere of overtime, even "pseudo overtime" has appeared. I arrive at the company at 10 in the morning, go to the toilet, read the news, and browse my Moments. It's already 11:30, and I haven't done any work. Then I prepare to have lunch. After lunch, I go for a walk and take a nap. It's 2 o'clock again. I write some code and browse Zhihu. Another afternoon has passed. Many companies have free dinners. After lunch, I come back around 7 o'clock, write some code, and grind until 10 o'clock. Oh yeah, it's another fulfilling day. I'll post a Moments to let my boss know.
In fact, the effective working time in a day is less than 8 hours, but it is "overtime".
To sum up, this is probably the reason why overtime is so serious in China.
The reason for the weight.The reason for the weight.

This post is from Talking
Add and join groups EEWorld service account EEWorld subscription account Automotive development circle

Latest reply

I can earn a good income by working overtime, and it is OK if I don't get the basic salary.  Details Published on 2019-1-17 12:01
 
 

613

Posts

2

Resources
2
 
After reading the post, I found some of what they said is quite correct.
This post is from Talking
Personal signature我是一头搞电子的猪,猪是一种好色的动物,猪八戒就是代表.       
 
 
 

3414

Posts

0

Resources
3
 
There is a kind of union called the Amarican Union
This post is from Talking
Personal signature

So TM what......?

 

 
 

2145

Posts

8

Resources
4
 
It seems the picture is down
This post is from Talking

Comments

It's really down, I uploaded it again  Details Published on 2019-1-9 17:05
Personal signature坐而言不如起而行
 
 
 

9157

Posts

6

Resources
5
 
wsmysyn posted on 2019-1-9 16:58 It seems that the picture is down
It is indeed down, I uploaded it again
This post is from Talking
Add and join groups EEWorld service account EEWorld subscription account Automotive development circle

Comments

Well, I thought there was something important in the picture, but it turned out to be an emoticon.  Details Published on 2019-1-9 17:17
 
 
 

2145

Posts

8

Resources
6
 
eric_wang posted on 2019-1-9 17:05 Sure enough, it's down, I uploaded it again
Well, I thought there was something important in the picture, but it turned out to be an emoticon
This post is from Talking
Personal signature坐而言不如起而行
 
 
 

2w

Posts

341

Resources
7
 
If programmers don't work overtime, who will? It's true... Sometimes it's not just to fix bugs. Look at the apps on mobile phones nowadays. They are upgraded and updated every other day. Programmers are tossing around under the direction of product managers. Once the hardware is done on a mobile phone, they will work on another new mobile phone. It seems that overtime is limited.
This post is from Talking
 
 
 

650

Posts

8

Resources
8
 
That makes sense. I've been leaving get off work on time since I first joined the company. I won't leave until an hour after get off work.
This post is from Talking
 
 
 

6366

Posts

4936

Resources
9
 
This post was last edited by tiankai001 on 2019-1-9 18:56 I feel the most deeply about the right to speak. We have now established a new test center. The original intention was good, but now it has become that when a problem is found during testing, the developer must immediately put down the task in hand to respond. If they are slow, they will be reported to the senior leaders, saying that the developer does not cooperate with the test. After the test is finally completed, the testers make a lot of suggestions. These suggestions are called suggestions, but in fact they must be added to the program 100%. A leader of the test center said directly that if the developers do not accept my suggestions, they will make this suggestion layer by layer until this suggestion is enforced. There is no product without suggestions. After the product is on the market, these suggestions will basically not be used. Because the test center is evaluated according to the number of problems found and suggestions made, every product will make a lot of suggestions even if there are no problems during the test.
This post is from Talking
 
 
 

1w

Posts

25

Resources
10
 
It’s not that we really value technology, that’s exactly the case.
This post is from Talking
 
 
 

1903

Posts

0

Resources
11
 
It's like this. I didn't have any weekends off in November and December last year. My boss wouldn't let me take any. I had to be out before New Year's Day, and I had to be out for several projects.
This post is from Talking
 
 
 

5791

Posts

44

Resources
12
 
It seems that the topic of overtime is indeed unavoidable. There are too many problems. Because a project is not done by one person, it is difficult for you to influence other people's ideas. It is very NB to lead one yourself...
This post is from Talking
Personal signature

射频【放大器】

 
 
 

1w

Posts

142

Resources
13
 
The original poster's article is very one-sided. It is certain that it is not made up by someone familiar with American high-tech companies. Do programmers in American high-tech companies work overtime? I can tell you very confidently that they do. Not only do they work overtime, but the pressure is no less than that of Chinese companies. It is not uncommon for R&D personnel in companies such as Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon, and Facebook to get off work after 10 pm. When they are rushing to meet deadlines, some of them work all night. In famous American universities, at the end of the semester, at 4 am, the laboratories, computer rooms, and libraries are still full. It is precisely because of this culture that there is the story of Kobe in Los Angeles at 4 am. However, Americans pay attention to work efficiency and will not work overtime blindly. How to work overtime is a science. Huawei is the first and currently the only Chinese company to fully introduce and adopt the American management system. Many of its rules, including meetings and overtime, come from the United States. Americans can come up with so many innovations and lead modern technology. Don't think that it is pie in the sky. It is also the result of hard work. Comparing China and the United States with the story of Tian Ji's horse racing, the United States is more diligent in "starting the horse" than China, while China and the United States have their own strengths in "horse racing", and China is ahead in all aspects of "getting off the horse". This is also consistent with the actual positioning of the two countries in the fields of global science and technology, economy, etc.
This post is from Talking
Personal signature上传了一些书籍资料,也许有你想要的:http://download.eeworld.com.cn/user/chunyang
 
 
 

1w

Posts

142

Resources
14
 
Another example: Do Canadian programmers work overtime? What I know is that they basically don’t, which is consistent with the original poster’s post. How do I know this? Because many of my relatives and classmates have been working and living abroad for a long time, and some have worked in China, including at Huawei, ZTE, Tencent, etc., and many of them are middle-level or even senior executives, at least they are all senior, so the relevant information is obtained directly rather than from the Internet or from others.
This post is from Talking
Personal signature上传了一些书籍资料,也许有你想要的:http://download.eeworld.com.cn/user/chunyang
 
 
 

1297

Posts

2

Resources
15
 
I think this article is just a comparison between China and foreign countries to criticize the domestic situation and imagine a better future. From what I know, many American programmers do not work overtime, just because there are many Asians working overtime in the same department. From the industry perspective, the possibility of not working overtime is very small
This post is from Talking

Comments

It is true that Asians (referring only to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Indian) are more likely to work overtime than Europeans, but this is not a reason for Europeans not to work overtime. Some Europeans do not work overtime because of their own choice, and the price they pay is that their income is not as good as that of colleagues in the same position who work overtime. This discussion is only about high-tech companies, and there are also many similar situations in China and the United States.  Details Published on 2019-1-10 14:02
 
 
 

1w

Posts

142

Resources
16
 
johnrey published on 2019-1-10 10:25 I think this article is just to criticize the domestic situation by comparing China and foreign countries, and to imagine a better future. From what I know, many American programmers do not work overtime...
It is true that Asians (referring only to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Indian) do more overtime than Europeans, but this is not the reason why Europeans do not work overtime. Some Europeans do not work overtime because of their own choice, and the price they pay for this is that their income is not as good as that of colleagues in the same position who work overtime. The discussion here is only about high-tech companies. There are also many companies in China and the United States that do everything according to the rules and work from nine to five. The comparison should be made within the same scope.
This post is from Talking
Personal signature上传了一些书籍资料,也许有你想要的:http://download.eeworld.com.cn/user/chunyang
 
 
 

1w

Posts

142

Resources
17
 
No one wants to work overtime. If you can get a satisfactory income without working overtime, and the income will be higher if you work overtime, and maintain the fairness of "you reap what you sow", then it is best to be able to freely choose whether to work overtime according to your own situation.
This post is from Talking
Personal signature上传了一些书籍资料,也许有你想要的:http://download.eeworld.com.cn/user/chunyang
 
 
 

1w

Posts

16

Resources
18
 
Because the United States is a developed country and our country is a developing country
This post is from Talking
Personal signaturehttp://shop34182318.taobao.com/
https://shop436095304.taobao.com/?spm=a230r.7195193.1997079397.37.69fe60dfT705yr
 
 
 

76

Posts

1

Resources
19
 
Isn't it because Americans' native language is English and there is a language barrier between Chinese and Americans? I wonder if Americans read code just like they read their own language.
This post is from Talking
 
 
 

869

Posts

0

Resources
20
 
I think this article is just a comparison between China and foreign countries to criticize the domestic situation and imagine a better future.
This post is from Talking
 
 
 

Find a datasheet?

EEWorld Datasheet Technical Support

Copyright © 2005-2024 EEWORLD.com.cn, Inc. All rights reserved 京B2-20211791 京ICP备10001474号-1 电信业务审批[2006]字第258号函 京公网安备 11010802033920号
快速回复 返回顶部 Return list